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Hello and welcome to another episode of It’s not that simple from the Francis Manuel D Santos Foundation as always we are back to speak with some of the world’s leading experts on a variety of subjects across Society politics and economics today we’re going to be focusing on communicating science why is
It not that simple we’ll be exploring the role of Science in our society and what are the big topics we should be aware of right now we’re going to be doing this with our star guest Brian Cox Brian is an English physicist and professor of particle physics at the
University of Manchester a fellow at the Royal Society and uh most people would ALS also know that he’s quite a popular television radio presenter and author he’s received a multitude of awards for the work he’s done in publicizing science Brian I could go on with your CV
But in the uh interest of our viewers and listeners times let’s get straight into it it’s amazing to have you on the show really looking forward to our chat let’s start with a a general View and your opinion on what the role of science is in today’s society especially in our
Digital age so media age where there’s so much noise out there what’s the role of science well I would say um let’s first Define science so I would say it is the way we have as a civilization of acquiring reliable knowledge about nature so that’s one definition one of
My great Heroes actually Richard femer the Nobel prize winning scci physicist described it as a satisfactory philosophy of ignorance okay um and those two definitions actually I think are very important so what do I mean by reliable knowledge I mean that um we could ask questions such as why is the
Sky blue why our leaves green or what do it what happens if you pump greenhouse gases into the atmosphere those are all questions um now what science I would argue does is gives us the best answer given the state of our knowledge and the data that we have at any particular time
Very important important going back to what Richard fan said not to assume that it’s absolutely right scientific knowledge is not something that’s you know passed down on stone tablets from a mountain and can never be changed it evolves all the time but I would argue
That it’s the best we can do at any particular time constantly changing so that’s the satisfactory philosophy of ignorance so you put those two things together and I would argue that science forms the foundation or at Le one of the necessary foundations of our civilization you mentioned knowledge and
Ignorance and I wanted to pick up on that because and this is a question but I’ll I’ll phrase it in a way which is a little bit my opinion where historically knowledgeable people have had a platform uh um people with with ignorance on science have not had a
Platform that’s not the case today right everybody has a platform with social media how much diff how much harder is it for you and the world’s leading scientists to communicate what’s fact and what’s science in light of of of these challenges well I mean I one thing to
Say is that I would argue that um there are many people throughout history have had platforms and have known nothing about science anyway given that um I I think you’re right that there’s a lot of noise and and sometimes the noise you know I used to think it was kind of IM
Amusing so if you’re arguing with a someone who thinks the Earth is flat or whatever it is then it’s kind of it’s kind of funny however there is of course a correlation between believing ridiculous things which are in many ways harmless and believing and loudly proclaiming things which affect
Everybody else and so so you’re right it’s one of the great challenges I think not only on social media but actually for our democracies is how to how to make the argument how to to how to allow people to understand that there is such a thing as what I called
Reliable knowledge earlier that that you could call it well let’s just call it reliable knowledge and then there’s opinion and it’s not to say this is the the Fine Line we have to walk when we’re communicating science nobody least of all scientists are arguing that scientists should be the Arbiters of of
Policy public policy or scientists should not be making decisions on on how a country goes about its business right this this is not what scientists do we’re not experts in it and we’d make a mess of it but what’s very important is that um I think it comes down to
How people weigh different sources of information when they’re making their own decisions in a democracy and when they’re making decisions about how the how how a democracy should proceed and that’s the key thing it’s it’s so easy for for scientists to sound arrogant and that turns people off scientists are not
As fan said right and we can get into this some more the the key to science is not to be arrogant not to think that you’re right not to think that you know everything about nature if you thought that then there’d be no point in doing research which is the live blood of
Science so it’s how to communicate that fine line that there is a there is a a snapshot of our understanding a best snapshot at any particular time it can change tomorrow or the day after or the day after but it’s it’s it’s getting that allowing people to have the
Confidence uh and the understanding to weigh the scientific evidence and the scientific understanding and then make decisions about how they should proceed when you talk about science in in contemporary life obviously they big topics which uh get most of the media attention and and and the health of our
Planet is certainly one of those um I know you have a breadth of knowledge across a variety of areas of silence and of Science and we’ll we’ll get in in into some of the other ones later but when it comes to planet Earth how much are scientists being listened to right
Right now and how would you characterize uh uh the priority to to to take care of our of our home environment well it’s interesting if you look back through the history of climate science um we we’ve known for a long time decades that if we continue to put
Greenhouse gases into the atmosphere at the rate at which we’re doing then the climate will change average temperatures globally will rise we’ve known that for a very long time um it’s difficult climate science so so if you ask for very precise predictions then we don’t
Have the ability to do that but we have a broad understanding of the sweep the the the the change in climate over years and decades and the predictions have been broadly correct for many years um I think now the public attitude or understanding of that challenge is changing because worryingly
We’re starting to see it really viscerally seeing it seeing the effects of climate change so I I sense there’s a change in public attitude it’s it’s difficult you see um it’s it’s difficult to say we have modeled something which has profound consequences may have extremely profound consequences we
Modeled it in some computers and this is what we think and therefore we should all change our Behavior that’s extremely difficult as a as a as a political message to get across and and you know broadly speaking our civilization failed to do that um over the last decades um
The problem of course the the tragedy of it in a sense is that the models were broadly correct but the longer you leave it the more expensive and difficult it is to correct and the more tragic the consequences and that’s what we’re seeing now so so I argue now I feel just
So looking looking across various societies different countries across the world that the message is now pretty well understood unfortunately that’s because the people are seeing it with their own eyes and feeling the consequences so that’s um that that’s climate you asked also about why why it matters and of
Course um we could have long discussions about why it matters in terms of um you know food Supply and so on global Health migration across the planet but I think bro more broadly uh I was asked to to deliver a message at the cop climate Summit in Glasgow it was a great honor
Actually to the make a small a small message to world leaders as part of that Summit and and I said um it’s possible it’s possible given what we know that the number of civilizations in a typical Galaxy is small low um I I it’s interesting actually the
The biologists that I ask tend to be rather more pessimistic than the astronomers because we there what 400 billion Suns give or take in our galaxy most of them have planetary systems a trillion planets or more in the Galaxy there have been 13 billion years of cosmic history so you
Might say well surely biology has constructed things like us or perhaps far in advance of us out there amongst the Stars maybe so we don’t have any evidence though but actually when you look at the history of life on Earth uh one fact I’ll give you one fact there are many
More but one fact is that here on this planet it took around four billion years onethird of the age of the universe to go from cell to civilization that’s a very very long CH time for an unbroken chain of life to exist on a planet that alone should tell you that perhaps
There may not be anything unusual about microbes scattered around the Galaxy but perhaps given that four billion year time scale there may be something unusual about intelligence and civilizations so let’s let’s make the argument let’s imagine that civilizations are very rare you can make the argument that maybe there’s less
Than one on the average per Galaxy at any given time that would mean that we are remarkably valuable not withstanding our undoubted physical insign ific and I think that perspective Carl Sean one of my great Heroes always said that astronomy is a humbling and character building experience so The Humbling is
Easy you know we sit on one planet around one star amongst 400 billion in one Galaxy amongst two trillion in the observable universe humble right the perspective but character building I think that it’s possible that places like this where there are collections of atoms like you and me
That can think and that can understand and explore the universe might be so rare that they are unimaginably precious and therefore what we do on this planet what we do to our civilization what we do to the planet actually does matter beyond the shores of our planet
Potentially and so I think that’s a very powerful argument for for just allowing the perspective that astronomy gives us to inform the way that we behave and the care that we take of each other of our civilization but also of the natural world on which we depend there’s so much to deconstruct
There but I did want to get into the uh uh uh subject of of of space of space travel you mentioned planets you mentioned our galaxy uh obviously some of the more extreme thinkers might might believe that even if we do destroy this planet event it’s okay because we’ll have others to
Colonize space travel is becoming more common now even for uh I would say Rich amateurs around around the world how do you react when when when there are those who argue that we can colonize other planets and there is a plan B to look into if this one goes wrong it’s it’s a
Matter of time scale to an extent I mean let’s just set the scene I mean is true that this planet will become uninhabitable in a border a billion years or something right so we’ll just there is a time limit so we’ve got to get out there to the Stars eventually
But we’re talking let’s talk in time scales of centuries let’s talk in the time scale of a hundred years I do not think that we have the capability to terraform for example Mars on a 100e time scale let let’s think about what we’re talking about here Mars is the
Only other planet that we could hope to visit we’re not going to Mercury it’s too hot and too cold depend on where you are on the planet Venus is definitely too hot and everything else is made of gas right so we’re not going anywhere else other than Mars Mars is a
Horrendous place right it’s absolutely it is not a place that we would want to live clearly obvious things like this atmosphere tenuous as it is the it’s it’s it to me it’s it I I think we will be there um in my life time I think
In the next few decades there will be a crude Mission to Mars okay so physically on the planet you think it’s possible I think so within the next few decades yeah I have no argument with um SpaceX for example or indeed NASA when they they have a long-term plan that involves
Going to the moon and then onwards to Mars um we could do it we we could do it with sufficient investment I think in in the next decade um wow whether 10e time scale whether we will or not is another question it’s about investment um however there’s a big difference between
Sending an Apollo like Mission e even though it will be more it’ll be it’ll be it’ll be more of a permanent base if we set a base up on Mars and we’ll be talking about three four five 10 20 astronauts maybe at some point over the coming decades and it’ll be a wonderful
Achievement it’ll be a stepping stone but the idea that that can you can build a civilization on Mars that can be self-supporting that could sustain itself even if the Earth was completely destroyed is to me science fiction I think we’re centuries away from that kind of capability um so the the for me
The simple fact is that as you said there is no plan B there will not be a plan B for at least 100 years and I would think more than that because we’re talking about tremendously difficult things to do and so I think we need to focus on making sure that this planet
Supports the civilization that depends on the planet I did want to get your take on the role of artificial intelligence and how it could help speed up uh uh the process of uh in this case uh speaking specifically about space travel and Technology overall I mean I
Think it’s very much the the the the Hot Topic of 2023 at least in in my community AI right it suddenly has become a a an expression that people use I would say in in day-to-day conversation because of the rise of chat GPT because of more tools that are being
Used by everyday professionals around around the world how has AI changed your role as a scientist and what impact does it have on on on how quickly technolog is moving well the the thing to say about AI is there are there are multiple issues here we all use it every day an
AI system is essentially a a a predictive system so AI systems predict and they learn and that’s how chat GBC works the translation software self-driving cars for example uh Safety assistance systems in cars all those things AI systems so so we we all use them every day and they make our lives
Better because they make us more productive and that’s one sort of Road in in AI um but I so I think then there are there are problems maybe they’re not broad enough for us to talk about there are problems with regulation for example and particularly regulating self-driving
Cars for example what happens when an AI is driving a car and the car crashes and so on but those are those are regulatory issues but I think um probably what you’re referring to there there are two threads that people find more interesting I think in the medium term
What one is the question but when you say AI I think a lot of people think of Terminator or something like that right so think of some system becoming sentient and then wiping us out and I think most experts I speak to think we’re a very very very long way away
From what you might call artificial general intelligence which is um you know something that can really really think out thinkers absolutely however you could imagine I had a a conversation actually with an expert a few weeks ago on this you could imagine for example that how much
Responsibility do we give AI systems so for example imagine that we handed a nuclear deterrent over to an AI system um what sort of a threat would that be so it’s not that the AI is going to sit there and think I can wipe these people
Out that will be fun and do it intentionally but the increasingly we are allowing AI systems to make decisions now some of those decisions most of them at the moment all of them are kind of trivial decisions but decision on how to drive a car is less trivial and potentially problematic but
If it’s a decision about how to launch nuclear weapons because you can see it might give you an advantage or appear to as a country because it’ be very fast and it can work things out but I think most of us would prefer a human in the chain definitely to exercise some
Judgment moral judgment uh about really serious decisions so I think again it comes down to regulation at the moment I don’t think there’s a techn I don’t think there’s a technological threat in the sense of sentient Robots coming to wipe us out or something like that but I
Do think there are serious issues about how we choose to give AI systems decision making power and I I I think those Frameworks are beginning to be developed now we’ve touched a little bit upon uh uh the the universe galaxies I know you’ve done a lot of uh uh work and
Research around black holes and I did want to bring that topic up because it’s very complex I think first of all everybody thinks they know about black holes for the science fiction movies we may have watched um but what is what is and and I know it’s also not a topic
That that you can cover very quickly but what is the the one fact about black holes that that we should know about or that we should care about that that has taught us the most about the universe well so so black holes I mean they two kinds of black holes really
There’s the ones that form when massive stars collapse um and there are black holes at the centers of Galaxy super massive black holes the these are big things the there’s a Galaxy called m87 we have a very famous image the first image gathered by a telescope called Event
Horizon of a black hole in m87 which is six billion times the mass of our sun so these things are big powerful things they exist the interesting thing about them though beyond the fact that they’re astrophysical objects that are very strange and Powerful the interesting thing is that in trying to understand
Them over the last 50 years or so going back to stepen Hawkings work in the 70s and back further actually in trying to understand that we’ve been pres presented with very well defined sharp questions about fundamental physics so they they challenge us they challenge us to think about what we know about
Einstein’s theory of general relativity which is have best theory of gravity in space and time and quantum theory quantum theory is our theory of everything else and they challenge us to think very deeply about the fundamental basis of those theories and that’s really I think why they’re so interesting to
Theoretical physicists and the the very the short answer to your question give you one fact about them in trying to understand whether these things destroy information in the universe as a fundamental level do they erase information from the universe we’ve been forced to confront a question about the nature of space and time
Themselves so we’re asking questions because we’re forced to by studying black holes about well for example are there building blocks of space and time and the very short answer to a very long story that goes back a long time is that we now have theories really physical
Theories that we can think about which tell us that space and time emerge from something deeper and what do I mean by that we talked about AI earlier right and so what what what is consciousness one of the big questions right what what does it mean
To be conscious what you could say is well whatever it’s a property of nature that that you and I and everyone listening and watching thinks it’s a property of nature but it emerges from something deeper which is a a pattern of atoms it’s a remarkable thing we have no
Idea how it how it emerges but it does little idea that to in deference to my colleagues that study it right so but it’s a difficult question um in the same way we’re beginning to suspect that space and time time emerges from something that doesn’t have time in it
In the same way that thought Consciousness emerges from things that don’t have thought in them which is atoms that’s a remarkable thing yeah and I would say that would be a topic in itself for a for for a different uh half hour show a lot the nature of Free Will
And Consciousness the nature of time yeah yeah for sure for sure um before we get to the quickfire uh round that we always have at at the end of of our shows I I did want to ask you what is the the most amazing mindblowing fact about the the universe
That regular people like myself should should should know about and and care about with all the the the facts and and and magical uh uh functions of of our planet our galaxy The Universe what is one thing that you’re still incredibly uh uh impressed about that that we we should we should
Know I’m astonished and everybody knows this actually I’m astonished the universe can explore an attempt to understand itself if you think about it you know we have a we know that 13.8 billion years ago the universe was very hot and very dense only really had shortly after the big bang had hydrogen
And helium in it and then over 13.8 billion years and a bit of lithium for the experts right and over over 13.8 billion years then it’s it’s structures have emerged in the universe like us right the the Earth with its ecosystem and collections of atoms that can think
Which is what a human being is I find that astonishing and I think many people now think that one approach to cosmology is to start with that remarkable fact what is the most remarkable thing about the universe it’s that a civilization exists in it at least one right and then work back from
That and say well is that fortune is it is it tremendous Good Fortune is you know the Hope in cosmology many years ago was perhaps this is the only way it could be and there still that hope you know perhaps we can find some kind of Theory of Everything from which it flows
Inevitably that you’ll get collections of atoms trying to understand the universe Carl San again he he had a wonderful turn of phrase he said once that a physicist is a hydrogen atom’s way of understanding hydrogen atoms right it’s a remarkable thing so that’s what I would say just think about not as
You said that it’s remarkable there are billions of galaxies there have been billions of years trillions of stars and Suns and planets that’s all mindblowing but the most remarkable thing is that you exist at all that to me given the action of simple laws of nature is astonishing and worthy of
Thought all right uh Brian we’re going to get into the quick fire so uh just one word or one sentence answers here uh please and I know that that you could obviously spend more time answer ing these but yeah what what is one personality trait a good leader could
Really benefit from having from your experience humility humility as I as I said before uh can I add one more more than one sentence just to say that um i’ strongly recommend that there’s an essay by Richard fan called the value of science you can get it online freely
Available 1955 I think it was and he talks about what the study of nature can teach and what we said earlier this philosophy of ignorance this humility in the face of nature the desire to acquire new knowledge which means you accept that you don’t know everything and it’s
That and fiman said it that’s the open Channel that’s what he called it the open channel to wisdom to Enlightenment even is to accept that you don’t know everything and allow new ideas to form allow your mind to be changed by the experiences that you have that is so
Important and and was you know it’s read read Fan’s essay I would strongly recommend it gotcha that was the last time I’m permitting more than one sentence sorry but I had to say that what is the what is the biggest challenge Humanity faces today in your view it’s a political challenge to
Understand how to run a planet how to run a global civilization okay that’s a big one again could be dis deconstructed if if you could change one thing in the world today what would that be you have the power to change one thing I would ensure that everybody has the luxury of
Education yeah uh and what is the most important learning of your life and career I think from from being a research scientist it’s go fan as well said this it’s the experience with being wrong most of the time when confronted by Nature really good uh I’m going to make
Another one up on the spot because we still have just one more minute and you know what I can no one’s going to stop me may maybe you will but uh do you believe in alien life and why or why not this is just kind of a Hot Topic with
The Declassified NASA uh uh files and and and a lot more noise around this recently I if I had to guess I would say that there would be microbes in the solar system I think that they may have existed may still exist some surface on Mars and may exist for example on
Jupiter’s moon Europa however complex life multicellular life I think will be very rare it’s a guess it’s my opinion but I think you will have to go many thousands if not millions of light years in every direction to find an ecosystem as complex as the one we find on Earth
Wow that means we are indeed special Brian it’s been an absolute uh uh pleasure privilege to be able to to uh sit here and and discuss so many uh uh important topics around science and and that the fact that that you have so much knowledge around the work you do as an
Astrophysicist as well so many pertinent uh uh uh subjects to to get into around this conversation and try to simplify it for us so thank you very much all the best with your with your life and work thank you very much it’s been a pleasure it was indeed amazing to speak with
Brian Cox on another episode of It’s not that simple from the Francisco Manu SOS Foundation see you soon
5 comentários
Mais alguém ficou "🤯😳" quando a conversa entrou num tom mais especulativo/filosófico sobre a origem da consciência poder não estar associada à evolução, mas antes emanar de uma estrutura paralela aquela do Tempo, que em si mesma não encerra um potencial homólogo, ou sobre a possibilidade de, à expansão do universo, estar subjacente uma forma de auto exploração da sua própria área e existência, ou sobre o (muito possível) uso da Inteligência Artificial no processo de "terraforming" de outros planetas, nomeadamente Marte?
A par disto, a minha parte favorita é mesmo a do início, quando é dito que a comunicação de ciência não deve adoptar uma postura intransigente com os leigos, nem arrogante, dado que o objectivo principal da investigação é a mitigação perpétua da dúvida e da curiosidade, uma vez que a ciência é uma construção permanente do conhecimento mais fiável.
Estes dois momentos da entrevista foram fantásticos. O primeiro porque acolhe todos nós, e o segundo por abre a porta à conjectura, à criatividade e a uma especulação saudável, sem pôr em causa as evidências e os factos.
Tudo o resto que é discutido ao longo da entrevista, é igualmente cativante, mas o carácter dessa informação alimenta o entusiasmo da curiosidade, como muitas outras entrevistas.
Mas o primeiro e o último momento, alimentam aquele algo mais que nos distingue das calculadoras.
Adorei. Pura e simplesmente adorei esta entrevista, e este orador. ❤❤️🩹🤍
❤️🩹 Ter encontrado este canal no Youtube foi o melhor que me podia ter sucedido nos últimos anos…
Faith in portuguese journalism restored 🙏 !
O jornalista não foi de todo a melhor escolha. Mas é sempre um prazer ouvir o Brian.
Maravilhoso.
#stopthemobvote